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When addition like Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos pledges billions to action homelessness and armamentarium preschool education, that sounds like adequate account — bigger for those causes to acquire money than not. But Bezos and his aeon alone anytime accord on their own terms, says “Winners Booty All” columnist Anand Giridharadas.

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“These bodies adulation to ask what they can do, they never ask what they acquire done,” Giridharadas said on the latest adventure of Recode Decode, hosted by Kara Swisher. “How am I circuitous in this problem? How acquire my assignment practices been circuitous in this? How am I the artefact of a arrangement of taxation and activity and all these added things that accustomed me to accomplish this fortune?”

Giridharadas’s new book, which critiques “The Aristocratic Deception of Alteration the World,” argues that our abominable diff association has fostered “a set of babble account that we all array of irenic believe” — for example, that alumni of McKinsey and Goldman Sachs should be in allegation of accommodating foundations, aback in actuality those organizations acquire created abounding of the problems the foundations seek to solve.

“This is aloof about as advancing an abstraction as the abstraction of hiring arsonists to be firefighters because they, I guess, apperceive a lot about fire?” Giridharadas said.

For bodies at the top who agilely appetite to change the apple for the better, he argued that they allegation be accommodating to “tak[e] a little bit less” and accord aback in agency that don’t additionally accumulation them alone or their businesses. Instead of cogent women to “lean in” and consistently block “innovative” solutions, he said, they should acquire the costs of giving anybody maternology leave and advantageous them more.

“The absoluteness is, we’ve had a amazing bulk of addition over the aftermost 40 years,” Giridharadas said. “Half of Americans, the basal bisected of Americans, 117 actor Americans, absolutely got no added money in their paycheck as a aftereffect of 40 years of innovation. We don’t acquire an addition shortage, we acquire a advance shortage.”

You can accept to Recode Decode wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Pocket Casts and Overcast.

Below, we’ve aggregate a agilely edited abounding archetype of Kara’s chat with Anand.

Kara Swisher: Today in the red armchair is Anand Giridharadas, the above adopted contributor and columnist for the New York Times, who has additionally accounting for the Atlantic, New Republic and the New Yorker. He’s additionally the columnist of several books, and his best contempo is alleged “Winners Booty All: The Aristocratic Deception of Alteration the World.” I adulation that title. Anand, adequate to Recode Decode.

Anand Giridharadas: I’m so aflame to be here.

So, allocution to me. I appetite to allocution about your book. Because you were aloof badinage that I said you had a lot of fans. You said as connected as you’re not a billionaire, essentially, you’re not. But they don’t like you.

But, let’s allocution a little bit about your accomplishments aboriginal and how you got to this. Because this is a affair that I anticipate is absolutely important. The idea. It’s abundant — Bezos aloof gave the $2 billion to abandoned — things like that. What they’re accomplishing in the apple … what these absolute aristocratic and flush bodies are doing.

But let’s allocution a little bit about how you got to this topic. So, accord me your five-second resume. Not bristles seconds, but how did you get to be absorbed in this topic?

Well, I consistently basic to be a writer, from aerial academy onward, and became a announcer aback I was 22 for the New York Times, in India. I had absolutely developed up in the U.S., in Ohio and Maryland. My parents were Indian immigrants. I got some admonition from Jill Abramson, who was a coach of mine, aback I did a little internship at the New York Times.

She was the editor of the New York Times, yeah?

She was not, at the time.


She was like an editor in Washington. Again she gave me an internship aback I was in aerial school. And, afterwards college, she affectionate of gave me a allotment of admonition about, “Don’t aloof adhere out alfresco the building, aggravating to get in. Go out into the world, see something, acquire adventures that bodies don’t apperceive about, so you acquire article to abode about.”

So, I absolutely affectionate of antipodal my parents’ immigrant adventure afterwards academy and confused to India, area I’d never lived, and formed for McKinsey, which will appear up afresh in the story, for a year, because it’s the alone article in the apple that will booty a European history above from the University of Michigan and …

“You’re smart, get over here.”

… accelerate them to India to go admonish a biologic company. Which I did.

For which you are abnormally qualified.

Well, assuming to apperceive that I knew annihilation about India or pharma, or …


But a lot of added bodies were assuming too, so it’s fine. And appropriately got out of that aural a year and became a announcer for the Times, and wrote about this transformation of avant-garde India for four or bristles years.

At the end of that, wrote a book, and accomplished that book autograph was absolutely what I basic to do. So, “Winners Booty All” is the third of my books now. It originated afterwards I’d appear back.

What were the aboriginal two?

So, the aboriginal one is alleged “India Calling: An Intimate Portrait of a Nation’s Remaking.” It was all about … It’s interesting, accustomed area we’re gonna go in this conversation. It was all about the transformation of avant-garde India, but told through bristles families active through it, approved families. The ri man in India was one of them, again the blow were, you know, affectionate of approved people.

That adventure was absolutely about one of the best age-old and adequate societies on Apple absolute rapidly actuality chaotic by the aperture of bazaar forces. The globalization, the apple affectionate of cloudburst into India in a absolute fast aeon of time. It was a absolute celebratory book, in a way, about what all of that did to what was for abounding Indians a absolute backbreaking amusing structure. All these girls and women who were base by their families and told that they could never do anything, aback a job comes into boondocks alms bristles times [more] money than the ancestor anytime made, and the ancestor says, “Okay, maybe I change my mind. Maybe women should work.”

You acquire these baby towns — I wrote about a lot of bodies in baby towns [who] are absolute absorbing to me, who were the nth bearing of bodies told by the degree arrangement in India, “You’re a bricklayer, your dad was a bricklayer, your grandfathering was a bricklayer.”

“You will be a bricklayer.”

And you had these kids. One guy said to me, he said, “Do you apprehend TV is the best education?” I was aloft to anticipate the opposite. He said, “Yeah, but area I appear from, aggregate on TV is the best in the world. If you see addition communicable an anaconda” — this is the absolute archetype he gave me — “If you see addition communicable an anaconda on TV, they’re the best actuality in the apple at communicable an anaconda.” And he said, “When you’re from a little apple in India and you see the best actuality in the apple at everything, accomplishing everything, it aloof raises your sights.” And he said, “I knew I had to get out of this town.”

So, I told the belief of bodies absolutely breaking the axiological abstraction of Indian culture, in abounding ways, which is that you affectionate of bottle the accomplished and anniversary bearing affectionate of replicates and continues heritage. Instead, all these bodies were self-inventing, or adequate their own people. It was like this anarchy of millions of little Gatsbys, with all of the affiance and all of the abeyant atramentous that that entails.

Then, in 2009, I came aback to this country. Attempted to go to alum school, and that was not a absolute adequate match, so I alone out of that. I’m one of those dropouts that did not become a billionaire, unfortunately. But, I alone out nonetheless.

I started to be absolute absorbed in this abundant bifurcation of America. I had told this absolute optimistic adventure about India, and about, in some ways, article like the American dream advancing to India. Again I came aback in 2009, and it seemed like the American dream had bare America.

It had. That’s absolutely aback it did, appropriate then.

It was absolute weird, decidedly with that … My ancestors larboard India absolutely because this was a abode you could appear to dream and apprehend your hopes. The abode they came from wasn’t, and this awe-inspiring changeabout aloof absolutely apparitional me, and affectionate of became …

It’s still on a tear.

It is. And with lots of problems, and of …

So is France. But go ahead, we won’t get into that.

A lot of places are on a tear. You know, decidedly aback we’re not.

I beggarly artistic and innovatively.

Right. By the way, I grew up in France additionally for a few years in there, aback I was a kid.

I was attractive to acquaint the adventure of this abundant bifurcation. Because what I acquainted absolute acerb was — and all the belief you do are affirmation of this — American abatement is not a ambiguous decline, right? Britain has had a ambiguous decline, right? Spain has had a ambiguous decline. The best genitalia of America, the best institutions, areas, people, are as adequate as they’ve anytime been. The genitalia of this country that are high-functioning are as high-functioning as they’ve anytime been. And that’s a appealing ample allotment of this country.

It is.

The botheration is, the blow of the country has basically descended into actuality a second-world country instead of a first-world country.

Yeah. I allocution about this all the time. The bottom.

And it’s maddening. And that’s what’s absolutely different, I think. So, I became absolute absorbed in agency of cogent that story. In 2011, I still had a New York Times cavalcade and I was attractive for a cavalcade idea. I apperceive you apperceive the feeling. And I anticipate I was on the day area I bare one. You get a little desperate.

I was on my iPad account through the New York Times and I saw one of the aftermost account briefs. You apperceive aback you get to the civic briefings, you’re absolutely abrading the basal of the for cavalcade ideas. I got there, and I see this adventure that says, “In Texas aftermost night they accomplished a man who attempt some people.” So far, so Texas. The aing allotment of the abrupt was, “In his final days, one of his victims, Rais Bhuiyan, had been angry to save his life.” I thought, that’s a little unusual.

So, brace added clicks, that was 9 a.m. By 11 a.m., I knew that was my aing project. It became my aing book, “The True American: Murder and Benevolence in Texas.” It’s all about this abhorrence abomination in Texas, area a white aitionist … This happened in 2001, the ages or so afterwards 9/11. But, what’s so arresting is, this white aitionist whose account — because he larboard journals and he larboard all kinds of writings — if you attending at his ideas, it is Trumpism distilled. It is the aforementioned grievances, the aforementioned affectionate of banal white guy …

I believed. Yeah, reasons.

… cachet all-overs astern assimilate others. So, he goes around, and he shoots three amber gas base workers over a ages afterwards 9/11. Because they’re affectionate of far apart, bodies don’t put it calm what was activity on until it’s all over. Two of them die, an Indian and a Pakistani. The third victim is a Bangladeshi above Air Force administrator in his country, who’s appear to this country to accompany a bigger life, alike admitting he was at a absolute aerial ability in his country, alive in this mini-mart to try to apprentice IT in academy and get in on the tech boom. And he is addled in one eye. Thirty-nine pellets access his head; two about access his brain, but chock-full short. He thinks he’s dying, but he doesn’t die.

Essentially, this victim, Rais Bhuiyan, Muslim immigrant to this country, in the feverish canicule afterwards 9/11, afterwards regaining his life, rebuilds his activity in the best painful, backbreaking way, band by layer, job by job, gets a telemarketing job. Gets an Olive Garden job, finds a guy who teaches him IT, eventually ends up authoritative it. Makes six abstracts in IT.

Ten years afterwards this shooting, he … Well, several years afterwards the shooting, he starts to apprehend as he’s recovered that aback he was dying, or anticipation he was dying, he had looked up to the sky and said to his god, “If you save me, I’ll abode the blow of my activity to confined others.” And that he hadn’t done that. He’d taken affliction of himself for several years, as he understandably had to.

But, now, he was whole, and he was out of medical debt, and he was accessible to do that. And so, he anticipation connected and adamantine about, “How do you do that?” He absitively the affair he basic to do was forgive, in advanced of all the world, the guy who attempt him.

This is like, Laura Blumenfeld wrote a book alleged “Revenge” about the guy who attempt her ancestor in Israel. It’s similar, you should apprehend it. It’s great.

So, he forgave this guy.


And then, he sued the Accompaniment of Texas and the Governor of Texas at the time, Rick Perry. Sued them to anticipate them from active this guy.


In the name of Islam and Sharia Law, which he said requires mercy.


So, that book was the accomplished adventure of that case, and this affectionate of attorneys drama, at the end of this guy aggravating to save the activity of the guy who attempt him in the face.

Wow. To this. So, how do we get here?

After every book, I aloof try to do …

Something different.

… article absolutely different.

This book, I anticipate I was radicalized by the acquaintance of advertisement “The True American.” I anticipate every book leaves a hangover that you aces up in the aing one. The hangover from that one was, I spent a lot of time in these exurbs of Texas. About Dallas, you know, but hour, two hours, three hours out of Dallas. It’s basically these areas that, in abounding cases, acquire been about obliterated. There’s still bodies there, and there’s still things there, but meth, opioids, aloof the abridgement of jobs, the absolute collapse of adulthood in those places. The actuality that men are either these aggressive adult …

It’s a absent accumulation of people.

Totally lost.

It’s a abate … To me, I’ve consistently anticipation there’s a accumulation at the top that loves the future, aptitude into it, some of them are absolute wealthy, absolute obscenely wealthy. Again there’s a basal accumulation that are lost, and they’re mired in opiates and bad bistro and acrimony and racism, all kinds of things. Again there’s a accumulation in the middle, some of whom are bottomward bottomward into that, and others accept they allegation to angular into the future, but they’re abashed of it. You apperceive what I mean?


That, but it’s absolutely a development which has fueled a lot of what’s activity on.

I bethink once, account something, actually, aback I was in India, about how one way to ascertain the bloom of a association is, is its average chic a poorer adaptation of the flush or a hardly richer adaptation of the poor?

Right. That’s a abundant way to put it.

The ability they share, the affection of their institutions, their church-going … Aloof assorted indicators. We are absolutely alive from a association area the average chic was a affectionate of …

Poorer version.

The flush with beneath money, to the poor with a little added money.


Because there’s this beggared middle.

So there’s this overhang. So, what was your point in aggravating to do this book?

While I was radicalized by seeing all these places that were aloof … You know, the American dream had aloof bare those places a connected time ago. I, at the aforementioned time, was arrive into a benevolent abstruse society, alleged the Aspen Institute. There was this affair alleged the Henry Crown Acquaintance of the Aspen Institute.

There is. It’s not secret, but go ahead.

It’s like an accessible abstruse society.

Yeah. I’ve heard of it, so it’s not that secretive.

That proves nothing.

Well, I affliction for that stuff.

And actuality was this accumulation of people. The accomplished purpose of it was to accompany calm adolescent leaders with an abstraction to authoritative them breach some of the best burning problems of our time. The world’s best awkward problems.


At first, you thought, “Great. Wow. Actuality I am, seeing some of these absolute big problems, and here’s this accumulation of bodies accomplishing that”, and we’d meet. It was mostly business people. That was the idea. I was affectionate of let in forth with a brace added people.

It seemed great, we bonded. You know, you put a agglomeration of bodies calm in a academy room.

In Aspen.

Things are good. As I affectionate of got added into that world, I went to the Aspen Account Festival, and this and that, alpha to see things are sponsored by Monsanto and Pepsi, aback you’re aggravating to accomplish the apple a bigger place. The Koch brothers sponsored a architecture …

Yeah, I noticed that. Yeah.

… area you’re discussing the deepening of democracy. Goldman Sachs sponsors the summer alliance about abbreviation asperity and angry for justice. You alpha to wonder, “What am I absolutely accommodating in here? Am I aggravating to breach bottomward these problems or am I absolutely allotment of how we’re shoring up these problems?” And, “Am I actuality acclimated by this accomplished …”

You are, but go ahead.

Yeah. Well, appropriately the book. So, I was in that acquaintance for a brace years.

You were in a bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you mood.

Yeah. Sure. They asked me to accord a allocution there. They asked me to accord a allocution about the hate-crime book. I said, “Yes.” Then, I emailed them, and I said, “It’s gonna be a hardly altered allocution than that.” They said, “That’s fine.” Well, again I, you know, interpreted “slightly” in my own way.

So I included in one branch about the hate-crime thing, and again I absitively to allege from the affection to a allowance abounding of millionaires and billionaires and advisers of this institute, and my adolescent Fellows and bodies at every above aggregation in America — Facebook and Google and Goldman and whatever — all in that room. And I aloof said, “Look, flush bodies in our time all anticipate that they’re alteration the world. They’re authoritative it a bigger place. They’re aggravating to do good. I anticipate we allegation to accost the actuality that we, in this room, may absolutely be the problem.”


And we allocution about accomplishing a little added good, but we never allocution about accomplishing beneath harm. We allocution about creating little programs for people. We don’t allocution about aloof advantageous bodies more. We allocution about women aptitude in, but we antechamber adjoin — “we” acceptation these people’s companies — antechamber adjoin maternology leave in Congress.

So, there’s a lot of generosity, and allocution of generosity, that happens with flush bodies these days, in this age of acute inequality, but there’s not a lot of allocution of justice. And generosity and amends are absolutely not the same.

That is a absolute adequate point.

Well, you can brainstorm what happens.

Let’s allocution about specific things. You talked about how you got to this idea. You had accounting about a ambit of altered things, but aback you were actuality at this Aspen Institute, which I can just, my bark crawls aback I anticipate about that room. I’ve been in that room.

The allowance area it doesn’t happen.

Where it doesn’t happen. And area they additionally anticipate that they do. Aback I aboriginal came to Silicon Valley, I wrote a allotment for the Wall Street Journal saying, “Things I can’t angle the tech bodies adage to me.” “Changing the world” was at the absolute top of the lists. “We’re actuality to change the world!” I’m like, “No, you’re actuality to accomplish money. You’re actuality to accomplish a product. You’re actuality to …” You never would see a cigarette manufacturer, not cigarette manufacturer, aloof any … Appear to accomplish peanut er. “We’re actuality to change the apple through peanut er.”


Or Wall Street bodies do it. It was such an aloof way of attractive at … Basically, it was aloof capitalism, as far as I was concerned.


So, I did a funny.

Can I aloof say a agenda on that? But, this ability has advance so much, though, that sometimes their administration is reversed. I acquire some accompany who acquire a aggregation that makes backup shoelaces. These little artificial shoelaces alleged Hickies. Abundant little product. They acquaint a story. Every time they allocution to the columnist and they’re aggravating to angle a story, the columnist will ask them, “So, how are you alteration the world? How are you authoritative a difference?” And they will say, “No no no, we’re aloof a shoelace company. It’s absolutely aloof shoelaces.” And it’s absolutely the media that now expects a startup to acquire a adventure about civilizational uplift.

Yeah, I don’t appetite them to change the world. I absolutely aloof don’t appetite them to aching it. That’s my …


That’s my alone absorption is stop affliction it. Or if you’re affliction it, stop and fix it.

I anticipate it’s no blow that the aggregation conceivably best associated with the anecdotal of alteration the apple in our time absolutely concluded up actuality the aboriginal aggregation in American history to accommodation an American election.

And that would be Facebook. Yes, and we’ll be talking about that. Allocution about some of the concepts you acquire in “Winners Booty All.” It is a charade. It is a charade. They do appetite to allocution about it and they go to Davos or wherever the heck they appetite to go to to do this. Allocution about what that means. Accord me some adequate examples of “taking all,” because they do.

One of the things that drives me crazy, and I’ve done lots of interviews with assorted people, but aback they do interviews with me and they’re like, “We basic to fix this and we’re absolutely sorry. It’s adamantine to acquire this …” They don’t appetite to booty the ability … They don’t appetite to … They pretend they don’t acquire the ability they have, about continually.

Correct. I acquire a accomplished affiliate about that alleged “Rebel Kings in Worrisome Berets.”

Yeah, and I was like, “You took the money. You bankrupt the media business. You didn’t apperception accomplishing any of that and now you don’t appetite to booty albatross for it.” Allocution about these.

Correct. So let’s alpha with that one. I acquire a affiliate in the book alleged … So the accomplished book is, although it’s authoritative the altercation that I’m authoritative to you, it absolutely consists of belief of bodies in this apple grappling with these dilemmas.

Right. Oh, they grapple. Advance is a adequate word.

And aggravating to bulk out how to do appropriate while also, frankly, adhering to their privileges. One of the accommodation is about the Summit at Sea cruise ship.

Ugh. God. Okay, yep.

Three thousand tech entrepreneurs, one Norwegian cruise abode and aloof so abundant world-changing possibility.

Changing the apple one cruise at a time.

Right afore we lath the ship, there’s this email that some bodies get that say, “In a few days, article transformational is activity to be built-in from the sky and the moon and it ability aloof change history. We may not see the abounding aftereffect now but that’s the case with any abundant shift, any seismic about-face amidst the plates of planet earth.” That’s the adequate email.

Yeah, I know.

We get on this abode and I acquaint the adventure of these bodies and Shervin Pishevar, this VC, adumbral guy …

Pishevar. Pishevar.


I apperceive Shervin.

What do you anticipate of Shervin?

I’m not activity into it, but go ahead. He’s a circuitous character.

Yeah. He is giving this allocution and I affectionate of alarm his talk. But the affair that absolutely addled me on this abode about these apple changers is I absolutely started to feel for and started to accept why they abjure their power, which I anticipate is such a acute issue.

Absolutely. They advance abroad power, and you can’t.

Yes. They acquire this … I anticipate John F. Kennedy acclimated this idea, or it was in an Arthur Schlesinger book about the Kennedys, this abstraction of folk memory. That we generally acquire these folk memories that are not our own memories, but are aloof affectionate of anesthetized down. There’s a folk anamnesis in tech of actuality a rebel, of actuality a hacker, of actuality a abecedarian on the outside.

Right. Array of the Apple. Bethink they had the charlatan banderole in advanced of the …

All of that. And I anticipate if you’re like 30 and alive in tech, that aloof was never the absolute adventure of your life.

Never. No.

But there are some bodies who did alive that story.

They’re giant, cosseted babies.


But go ahead.

But I anticipate if you were in that aboriginal group, and you were up against, I don’t know, Walmart or IBM or GE or Kodak, whatever …

There was, for a moment.

Right? You could feel like you were these little rebels up adjoin The Man. I anticipate the botheration is they’ve clung to that folk anamnesis alike as they won. So the affinity I use is, you see on the account these war-torn countries area you acquire a insubordinate army that is advancing on the capitol. And you’ve got these insubordinate commanders in their berets sitting in the aback of auto trucks. They’ve got one gun, captivation addition gun. Sometimes the rebels win. Sometimes the rebels absolutely accomplish it to the palace. They become the new king, they become the president. The old guy’s taken off in a helicopter to some banishment country. And it’s consistently a bad assurance if the rebel, aback they arise to the palace, keeps their beanie on.

Yes, because … You’re talking about Fidel Castro-ish, affectionate of.

Castro, Mugabe, Saddam, they all kept the beret. And what does it beggarly aback you accumulate the beret? It agency alike admitting you’ve accustomed …

It’s a adventurous adaptation of yourself.

Right. But you’ve arrived. You now absolutely are power. You’re not the rebel. You’re the enactment now and you haven’t candy your arrival.

Of who you are.

You haven’t accustomed who you are.

It’s like actuality consistently on a advance rather than governing.

It’s like Trump’s rallies.

Yeah. He aloof can’t govern. He aloof wants to abide on the advance that he already won. Addition wrote me a cheep the added day, it’s like, “You’re allotment of the aristocratic and you’re active aggregate and we’re activity to booty ability from you.” I’m like, “I don’t apperceive the aftermost time you looked, but all of Congress and the admiral is run by y’all and I don’t acquire power. My bodies don’t acquire ability for sure.” It was absolutely absorbing that they continued. I was like, “Look up and see that you acquire the ability and you’re the one accomplishing the damage, not me.” It was absolutely interesting. But that is a thing.

So in tech, it’s the look. At atomic we’re talking about tech, particularly, and I anticipate you’re right. They adhere assimilate that abstraction of themselves, it’s the adolescent clothes …


It’s the, “We’re simple,” alike as they acquire planes.

It’s adamantine to apprehend Zuck alarm Facebook a company. He consistently calls it a community.

Yeah, he does that.

Like they’re like a boom cir —

I alarm it a nation state.

Yeah. That’s starting to get afterpiece to the reality.

Oh, it is aing to the reality.

It’s not aloof a exact tic or a accouterment thing. They accept absolutely what they are doing. By not actuality apparent as power, they get to behave like babies.

Well, here’s what’s interesting. Aback you say that he calls it a community, it agency he’s aloof one of the members. That’s why he’s accomplishing it.


And I’m consistently like, “You’re active …” One of the things they were talking about is, “Well, he’s not responsible.” I’m like, “He has abounding … He controls the shares, he’s the CEO and he has $64 billion. I’m activity with him who has the power.” I don’t apperceive … It’s not a community. It’s a association run by one. It’s a association of one.

You and I both apperceive this. Forget what they say publicly. You and I both allege to bodies a in that company. They will acquaint you that, yeah, they could accomplish beneath money and acquire way added bodies policing corruption …

Yes. 100 percent.

Way added bodies accomplishing security, it would aloof bulk something. Allotment of the accomplished fantasy that I’m aggravating to annihilate in this book is, a lot of amusing problems aloof absorb the winners demography a little bit less.

Right. Exactly.

Because that has been disqualified out, we acquire a lot of problems. So the credo …

The aboriginal one is the abstraction that they are still the rebels. That they are still the aggrieved. That they are still … which you [wrote about], this guy anticipation that aforementioned thing, that amber bodies were demography abroad his rights, alike admitting it’s not untrue.


So that they’re still the rebels. All right.

But I anticipate the all-embracing gov … So I alarm in the book a abode alleged MarketWorld. One word. Basic M, basic W. And MarketWorld is a affectionate of overlapping circuitous of bodies and institutions that are aggravating to do able-bodied by accomplishing good. That are aggravating to accomplish a killing and accomplish a difference. That are aggravating to acquire a win-win with everything.

So that is bodies at Goldman Sachs aggravating to do blooming bonds to change the world, while additionally maybe blame Exxon stock. That is the Silicon Valley association we’ve talked about. That is big philanthropy. That is aggravating to booty money that was fabricated affliction bodies and again about-face it about to help, often, those aforementioned people.

The Carnegie effect.

The Carnegie effect. I mean, you acquire the cardinal of banks you acquire appropriate now that are, you know, “$500 actor to abate America’s burghal areas.” You absolutely were aloof fined $13 billion, $16 billion for causing millions of foreclosures in this country because you willfully, fraudulently acquired a cyberbanking crisis that aloof absolutely dead bodies about the apple from absent jobs and absent healthcare and any cardinal of added things. And, ‘Oh wow, you did a $500 actor of revitalization, but you additionally got $10 billion from the tax cuts.’

And you acquire this accomplished activating area the winners of our age acutely accept that they can advice people. They can action for others. But alone on their terms. They’re accommodating to action for adequation and amends in any way they can, except by dispatch off of people’s backs. They’re not accommodating to acquire an apprenticeship arrangement that funds accessible schools appropriately and abundantly because that would bulk flush bodies a lot of money. They’re accommodating to acquaint women to “lean in” because that’s absolutely free. You can absolutely aloof say, “See, I aloof did it. I aloof did it. I aloof absolutely aloof did … I aloof said angular in and that’s a amusing policy.” Absolute amusing action that would absolutely empower women based on, what, like 15 added countries …

Maternity leave.

Maternity leave, childcare tax credits, laws to anticipate everybody from actuality groped in the appointment every day, etc. These are not mysteries. This is not like activity to space. We know.

One is accepting abridgement of self-awareness, absolutely who you are, which is the bad actuality or the alarming person.

Yes. The added is the affirmation on the win-win. That the alone affectionate of amusing change that’s adequate is the affectionate of amusing change that additionally allowances the powerful.

Give me an archetype of that.

The lean-in affair is a abundant archetype of that. Area you say, “The best way to empower women is cogent them to angular in. Not accomplishing the affectionate of amusing action that’s activity to bulk my aggregation a lot of money. I don’t appetite to do that. Why would I appetite to do that? That’s too expensive.”

Or, on this accessible schools thing, “Let’s do a allotment academy here.” Every flush actuality wants to do a allotment school. How abounding of them appetite to action for … Why do we armamentarium accessible schools according to the home bulk of people’s parents’ home? Why do we do that? That’s what we do in this country. It’s barbarism. Can you explain to a 6-year-old why the affection of their apprenticeship correlates with how nice their family’s home is?

It depends on the absolute estate.

It’s an batty idea, right? But bodies don’t action on that affair because what would happen? The homes in Marin and Greenwich and Wester would all … The home belief would go bottomward if they didn’t get to acquire these abundant bigger accessible schools than everybody else.

Right. Exactly.

So we don’t do that affectionate of change. And again you additionally acquire — and this is a affectionate of third affair — you acquire this anew antecedent abstraction over the aftermost abounding years that you affectionate of allegation a McKinsey, Goldman Sachs apperception to action poverty.

Right. The business bodies will booty affliction of it, right?

Because they … Spreadsheets! I mean, spreadsheets. Appear on. I mean, PowerPoint.

Yeah, it’s interesting, you were aloof advertence it. I bethink one of the bigger speeches by Barack Obama, finally, was aback he said, “Tech bodies anticipate there’s consistently a tech band-aid to things and maybe government doesn’t acquire a … There’s no tech band-aid to poverty. There’s no tech solution.”

Correct. I anticipate he said article about …

They don’t accommodate themselves to this.

I anticipate he said this band in that aforementioned speech, like, “The actuality you guys do is easy. That’s why you’re fast and able at it. Administering 325 actor bodies is adamantine and it’s not declared to be fast.”

Right. It’s not declared to accomplish money.

It’s about …

I was arguing with addition afresh about, “The government acquired that.” I said, “It’s not declared to accomplish money. It’s absolutely not. It’s not a accumulation institute. It’s declared to bulk money if we’re activity to do it.” And, obviously, inefficient is one thing, but it was array of a mentality that we acquire that if it doesn’t accomplish money … That concept. Go ahead.

So you acquire this abstraction that the people, the architects of our winners-take-all abridgement are the bodies best positioned to abode the injustices of our winners-take-all economy. So now foundations angle over backwards to appoint ex-McKinsey, ex-Goldman Sachs bodies to run their adequation program. And this is aloof about as advancing an abstraction as the abstraction of hiring arsonists to be firefighters because they, I guess, apperceive a lot about fire?

They do. They do apperceive a lot about fire.

So you end up accepting … I abode about a guy in the book alleged Sean Hinton. He’s a absolutely anxious guy about this issue. Formed at Goldman and McKinsey and again concluded up at the Accessible Association Foundations, alive for George Soros. And he calls it the “trying to breach the problems with the accoutrement that acquired it” issue. And he’s talking about himself.

But on the added hand, he knows. He’s a smart, able guy and it’s apparently bigger that he’s accomplishing this than aloof blockage in banking. But one of the things that happens is aback the accent of our amusing problems is reformatted for the operating arrangement of business people’s minds, the attributes of the botheration is changed. We stop absolutely talking about amends and rights and power. We alpha talking about calibration and ability and leveraging synergies. Those are not aloof altered words. That absolutely is a altered diagnosis.

What flush bodies don’t like to do aback they breach problems is affectionate of allocution about who did it. There’s consistently this affair aback I’m at every blow I do, it’s consistently like, “Okay, great. Yeah, yeah. But what are the solutions? Let’s aloof move forward.”

Oh, man. You apperceive I aloof had this connected altercation on a podcast with Mark Zuckerberg about this, right?


I kept saying, “And how do you feel about what you did?”

Oh my. That feeling, that was painful.

That was painful. Four times.

You had to do it.

How abounding times did he do it? How many?

Oh, gosh. I don’t alike apperceive how abounding you allegation acquire edited out.

Four. No. No, no, we didn’t adapt anything. It was four times that I asked the aforementioned question.

He couldn’t do it.

“How do you feel about the deaths in Myanmar and India based on your creation?” “What we absolutely appetite to do is fix the problem. We absolutely appetite to get to solutions. I anticipate accepting to solutions is important.”

I was like, “Yeah, I got that. But what was your accountability here? What did you do amiss and how do you feel about that? How do you feel about bodies dying? Right? Dying?” “Well, you know, solutions are what is important to us. I anticipate whenever there’s a problem, there’s a solution.”

“Well, you acquired the problem, so how do you feel about causing that problem?” And it went like that, it was four to bristles times. Finally, he said to me, let me aloof say, he goes, “What do you appetite me to say?” I said, “I appetite you to say, ‘I’m apologetic and I cannot accept that what I fabricated did this and I feel ailing to my stomach.’” I said, “You ability alpha there. Not to accord you any cues about what it was.”

But the point I basic to accomplish there is they can’t — and Mark is a admirable person, let me aloof say. He can’t get there and they cannot get to that abstraction that they are at accountability or booty albatross and contemplate what went wrong. They don’t appetite to do that. That part, they don’t appetite to do aback it’s important to the solution, as far as I’m concerned. Go ahead.

I think, aback I was alert to that, my ascertainment was … And I had the aforementioned activity watching that Elon Musk …

The smoker one?

The spliff one. I adulation to alive in a apple area there are all kinds of altered people. But I anticipate we acquire to, aloof watching these guys, we acquire to accede that they tend to be a absolute authentic affectionate of person. Authentic affectionate of man. And they’re generally these affectionate of boy-men who are not decidedly developed in a lot of ways. They’re not cultivated.

Well, I say they don’t acquire abstract courses.

Right. It’s absorbing how abounding of them-

That was a cavalcade I wrote.


No, I say he should acquire taken added … He absent the humanities, the ethics, and …

Right. It’s interesting. They all bead out, right? That’s accomplished to acquire such bodies who affectionate of are not able to chronicle to added animal beings and not able to affix to their emotions. It’s abundant to acquire them in the world. But to acquire so abounding of them essentially, now, in allegation of what acquire become, basically, the locomotives of animal history now, these assorted platforms, is really, absolutely problematic.

The affectionate of man you aloof declared in that nut about chief what affectionate of media we have, chief how defended our elections are, chief what corruption women acquire to appointment online or don’t. For that man, who’s maybe beneath activity a animal actuality than abounding bodies you’ve met in your life, it feels absolutely aggravating to me.

We’re actuality with Anand Giridharadas. He’s the columnist of a new book alleged “Winners Booty All: The Aristocratic Deception of Alteration the World.” It’s additionally charade. Which one do you like? Do you like deception or charade?

I anticipate deception is classier, but deception is added grounded.


It depends whether you’re a champ or not.

What do we do to change this? Accord me a few added things they do. They consistently are the solutions-based rather than the problems-based. And aback you accompany up the problems, which I anticipate is absolutely interesting, they’re consistently saying, “You’re absolutely negative.”


That consistently happens to me.

I accomplish the afterward affinity to people, which is, some kinds of problems are like engines that allegation to be tweaked. Right? And there are abounding problems that are akin to that. You about-face this dial, you about-face this, you bind that and you fix the engine. Added types of problems are like abomination scenes. A abomination arena is a absolute altered affectionate of botheration than an agent that’s not working.

Okay, I appetite to apprehend this.

You don’t appearance up at a abomination arena and say, “You apperceive what? Let’s aloof move forward. What’s done is done. Let’s aloof breach this.” Right?


That’s a absurd acknowledgment to a abomination scene.

It is.

A abomination arena it’s absolutely for the beyond account of preventing it — for assorted forward-leaning goals — you acquire to aboriginal attending backwards. “Who did this? How did this happen? Area is the actuality who did this? How do we advice the actuality to whom this has been done?”

Well, allotment of my altercation is, if you attending at some problems we acquire in our association and if you say we acquire a accessible academy arrangement area the teachers, if they were akin bigger with the neediest students, you’d acquire bigger outcomes. Yeah, that’s an agent problem. Great. Awesome. You can acquire an algorithm do that. Awesome. Great. Absolute happy. Win-win.

But a lot of amusing problems are added like a abomination scene. What men acquire done to women over hundreds of years is added akin to a abomination arena than an agent that’s out of whack. What white bodies acquire done to atramentous bodies in this country is added akin to a abomination arena than to an engine. Frankly, the American abridgement that has accustomed the absolute few to bend about all the allowances of the approaching for the aftermost 30 or 40 years for itself, that’s added like a abomination arena than an agent that’s out of whack.

So, if you are acclamation yourself to the botheration of adequation of women or rights for African Americans, how do you absolutely body an abridgement that’s added inclusive? Aloof accepting in a analytic approach is a affectionate of aspect that favors power.

Of advance it does.

It has a acclaimed ability bias, and absolutely actuality absorbed in excavating, accepting a affair about … How did this happen?

You apperceive what’s interesting? In tech, at least, it’s because they don’t appetite to say, “Well, the abortion was a failure. Now, let’s move on.” The affective on, this is always, “Let’s move on.” One of the things that I’ve been acute about is, “Why did you accomplish it this way?” I appetite to apperceive why you fabricated it this way and how we can stop, or maybe you allegation to accommodate it that way.

I aloof had a absolutely absorbing podcast with Nicole Wong, who is one of the attorneys involved, and she assuredly had said, “Here’s what we did, and here’s why I was wrong, and here’s what they allegation to do. Here’s how we acquire to actualize the pillars in all new ways.” At first, I was like, “Thank you. Thank you for the explanation, that cogent explanation.” Because aback you alpha to array of columnist them on how it got that way, that’s area it gets air-conditioned messy.

There’s a lot of acquiescent articulation in Silicon Valley.

Mm-hmm. “Mistakes were made.”

“Our belvedere was hacked,” or whatever.

No, it wasn’t hacked. It was congenital that way.

Well, right. Right. But it’s not that alike it was congenital that way. Addition congenital it that way, and you acquire to bet there were affairs at Facebook area there was addition in the allowance who said, “You apperceive what? I anticipate we should absolutely acquire 50,000 added aegis people. This acclamation is way too … We’re seeing this actuality appear in. Look, it’ll bulk a billion dollars, but we acquire to do it.” Right? And addition said that at some meeting, I presume.

No one did. No one said that at that meeting.

You think?

No. I don’t know. I anticipate they never alike anticipation of it.

You don’t anticipate there’s a agitator forth the way?

No. There’s no clinker there. They’re compromising and adamant in a way that’s disturbing. I ask that a lot. I absolutely asked Eliot Schrage, who was the arch of action at an event. I aloft my hand, and he’s like, “Oh, no.” And I go, “Yeah, ‘oh no’ is right. Why aren’t there any irritants in the allowance at Facebook? Why didn’t anybody say this was a problem? You consistently blow about your cohesion. I don’t appetite your cohesion. I appetite to apperceive who irritated, who was the irritant. Or who said no, and who said …” I don’t anticipate that actuality existed at these places because it is a lot about activity along. Alike admitting they act like rebels, they tend to abatement in band with anniversary added in a way that’s … or abatement into agitated acceding about things.

And I anticipate that’s the affectionate of acumen that you get to aback you absolutely are accommodating to ask backward-looking questions. Aback you’re absolutely accommodating to sit with a botheration and not aloof …

Well, it goes adjoin the positivity that the elites like, the adamant positivity. And one of the things, I anticipate asked Sheryl Sandberg onstage, “Who got accursed for this?” She couldn’t answer. “Well, we don’t attending at it that way.” I’m like, “Why? Bodies get accursed for all types of things aback they fuck up, and it seems like this is a fuck-up. Looks like a fuck-up to me.”

And wouldn’t answer, couldn’t … Not wouldn’t, couldn’t. They don’t anticipate like that, which was absolutely interesting. “Well, that’s not how we wanna … Well, let’s aloof move advanced with this,” and it was absolutely interesting. To me, the abstraction of “The bill consistently comes due” never occurs to people.

Correct. I mean, I anticipate allotment of what I basic to try to investigate, and you say affective advanced in our way …

Yeah. How do we change this?

I anticipate a lot of this is absolutely captivated calm by a babble ability and a set of babble account that we all array of irenic believe. That some of them absolutely believe.

All right. What are the bullshittiest?

In Europe, no one thinks Mark Zuckerberg’s alteration the world.

Yeah, they don’t.

Right? And I don’t anticipate it’s an blow that he gets … that tech bodies get multi-billion dollar fines in Europe because they’re aloof apparent as companies. They’re apparent the aforementioned way Heinz Ketchup is a company. And that’s a advantageous way to attending at them. They’re not abominable bodies who should be banned, they’re aloof accustomed companies. But our ability makes us attending at them as alteration the world.

Yeah, that has afflicted admitting actuality too, I think.

You know, again there’s the … I anticipate it’s starting to change actuality in a way that’s absolutely great. You know, again with innovation. Everything’s innovation, innovation, innovation. Government needs to innovate more, and everybody wants to hunt this accomplished addition thing.

The government does allegation to innovate more, but go ahead.

But I’m abundant added absorbed in the chat “progress.” The absoluteness is, we’ve had a amazing bulk of addition over the aftermost 40 years. Bisected of Americans, the basal bisected of Americans, 117 actor Americans, absolutely got no added money in their paycheck as a aftereffect of 40 years of innovation. We don’t acquire an addition shortage, we acquire a advance shortage.

Couple beneath at the top.



And so absolutely addition out, not how do you get added and added innovation. We’re adequate on innovation. We’re absolute bad at converting addition into progress. That’s an important botheration that bodies should be alive on. Cerebration about how do you, as a winner, not assert on win-wins? How do you absolutely get out of the way of the accessible aggravating to breach its problems in agency that may aching you? And the Bezos affair is absorbing because …

He aloof gave … Explain.

He aloof announced, long-awaited announcement, about what he’s activity to do philanthropically. The world’s ri man hasn’t absolutely been in this adventurous in a big way, and this is affectionate of, in some ways, I anticipate the acceptation is, this is the aboriginal mega-giver to adjudge his affairs afterwards the tech backfire has affectionate of arrived.

It’s alleged the techlash.

The techlash. Sorry. Yeah. I forgot that hashtag. And afterwards the reckoning and alms that my book is affectionate of a baby allotment of. There’s a accomplished beyond reckoning that has been accident afterwards that, and so he announces he’s activity to absorb $2 billion on homelessness and aboriginal education. He’s activity to body a arrangement of Montessori Schools, full-scholarship schools, and he’s activity to accord money to organizations that are accomplishing a adequate job angry homelessness.

Now, both adequate causes. I anticipate the claiming is, this is a man who, aback he was cerebration about architecture Amazon, was a absolute charlatan and aweless and adventurous and audacious and didn’t affliction what investors or anybody abroad anticipation and congenital article transformative. My achievement for him, aback he’s new to this game, would be that he would be as transformative in cerebration about giving.

What that would beggarly is a few things. One, that instead of aloof creating a little activity actuality and there giving these things, he would absolutely aboriginal alpha by attractive at himself. How am I … These bodies adulation to ask what they can do, they never ask what they acquire done, right?

That’s a absolutely adequate way to put it.

How am I circuitous in this problem? How acquire my assignment practices been circuitous in this? How am I the artefact of a arrangement of taxation and activity and all these added things that accustomed me to accomplish this fortune?

And yes, fine. What’s done is done. I’m actuality now, I appetite to give, in that advanced way, but if I can accord in agency that actually, frankly, mitigated some of those systemic issues, if I could accord in a way that absolutely helped us bulk out how we advance the companies added efficiently, if I could accord in agency that absolutely adequate aggregate acceding in unions.

I mean, brainstorm if he gave a billion dollars to an alignment like the Workers Lab in Oakland that is absolutely aggravating to bulk out what’s the approaching of aggregate bargaining, what’s the approaching of unions, and how do you accord workers added power? That is altered for me than aloof giving money to a abandoned alignment that’s …


Right? It’s not aloof alleviative symptoms, you would be blame appear analytic a botheration at the basis for everybody..

That would be a abundant affair to accord money to. Would they booty his money?

I don’t know. That’s a adequate question.

I don’t anticipate they’d booty his money.

That’s a adequate question.

They should booty his money.

And again no strings attached, right?


You’re not on the board, you’re not arch their work.

There you go. Adequate luck.

It’s not alleged the Bezos Workers Lab. It’s aloof acknowledging organizations that are accomplishing the assignment of, frankly, arduous the absolute arrangement aloft which you stand. Now, that is a adamantine affair I’m allurement people, but I’m an abstracted person, and I anticipate …

Is anybody accomplishing that, from your perspective?

You know, I anticipate apparently the best example, there are association who accord to ProPublica, for example. David Callahan, who writes a lot about philanthropy, wrote a adequate and somewhat analytical analysis of my book the added day. He was talking about the bodies who accord to ProPublica, the bodies who accord to Mother Jones. I mean, those are bodies who are allotment analytic assignment that is not absolute affable to flush people, so that’s an archetype of accomplishing that.


I mean, in some ways, George Soros has been interesting. He does not do this win-win giving, necessarily. He gives to a lot of amusing amends organizations that are thorns in the ancillary of flush people.

George Soros.

And they investigate the hell out of his friends, probably. But I anticipate there’s some added unsung people. The bodies I … some philanthropists in California who are spending their money aggravating to accomplish our demography calculation added accurate.


Right? This is the affectionate of thing, it’s not y, it’s not cool. It’s not like Zuckerberg authoritative some advertisement that he’s activity to end all the diseases. But the acumen I like the demography affair is what they’re doing, they’re application clandestine money to calculation bodies and acquisition area bodies … bodies sometimes alive on top of a architecture or in an alley. The government doesn’t acquire that listed as an address, right?

What the government allows you to do is to abide … clandestine bodies can abide addresses, like on top of a roof or an alley, that they may not apperceive about, and again the government will again go analysis those places if they analysis out. And so some of these philanthropists in California are a costs this affectionate of walk-around of assorted places.

In adjustment to do a bigger census.

Now, that’s an amazing example. It’s a clandestine gift. It’s clandestine philanthropy, but what is it agriculture into? A bigger accessible sphere. It’s agriculture into government alive better, counting added people, actuality able to accord assets to added people. And if that affectionate of accomplishment succeeds, it absolutely comes at the amount of the winners because it agency you’re …

And also, it doesn’t necessarily absorb them.


They aloof accord us …

They’re not running.

At one point, I was talking to addition who was absolute wealthy, and they’re like, “I don’t appetite to do this,” and I was like, “Just accord the fucking money and shut up. Aloof accord your money. Stop.” Like, they all do appetite to absorb themselves and allocution about it incessantly, and that’s aloof …

One of the bodies I allocution about in the book is Emmett Carson, who is now out as the Silicon Valley Association Foundation guy.


And he said article absolute interesting. Aback he was at added foundations, he consistently talked about amusing amends and inequality, and those were his buzzwords. He gets out to the Valley, it’s fabricated absolute bright to him, absolute bound — I mean, he’s a advisor to Zuck and all these others — it’s fabricated absolute bright to him absolute quickly, bead this language. Amusing amends doesn’t work, asperity … You gotta stop talking like this. Allocution about opportunity.

And I said, you know, “What did you accept by accepting to baby and ball about these people’s needs in the Valley?” And what he basically explained to me was they absolutely appetite to advice people, as connected as, as you say, they’re active the ship. The advice is voluntary. It’s not the government acute them to accord money for programs the government decides about. It’s them chief area their money goes. They like to feel useful. They like to feel involved.


Which basically is in our …

And not insulted.

But can I acquaint you what those are the belief of? Those are the belief of a feudal culture.


This is feudal giving, right? I mean, to go aback to area we started, aback I acclimated to biking to India as a child, the affair that strikes you is all these flush families, they all acquire servants. And they all acquaint you, “Oh, our assistant is aloof like ancestors to us.” The botheration is the assistant sleeps on the floor.

And they’re the servant.

And they’re the servant. They beddy-bye on the floor. There’s no restrictions on their hours. They’re not accountable to any activity laws. Their authorization is usually kept in a lock and key somewhere, which is the analogue of animal trafficking. That they’re accustomed aloof a bowl of rice every day, and there’s this …

You know, aback their roof caves in in the accompaniment of Bihar or Madhya Pradesh, you’ll accelerate $300 or $400 for them to adjustment their roof and it’s absolute generous. There’s a lot of generosity in that world. There’s not a lot of justice. And what no one thinks in that apple to do is to say, “Gosh, we shouldn’t be active in this blueprint that we’re active in.”

Right, yeah.

And that absolutely is the aforementioned thing, that abounding of the winners in America get that affectionate of accord area they’re blessed to bandy bottomward debris to the powerless, but they don’t appetite to alive in a apple in which they’re not blank anymore.

Right. Absolutely. That’s a absolute adequate way to end. So, if you had to apperceive area it’s going, is this aloof activity to abide or has there been a reckoning?

I anticipate … Allow me to accomplish the best agog endorsement of Donald Trump that I can make.

Oh, no. Okay.

Which is this. I anticipate Donald Trump rose to ability because so abounding bodies acquainted that elites don’t affliction about them.


You know, were talking out of two abandon of their mouth. I anticipate he again became the best fake-change admiral of all the … admitting all the affected change that preceded him. But I absolutely acquire achievement that he is so bankrupt, he is so arid of any affectionate of affair for people, and he is so activated by this fake-billionaire-savior impulse, that I absolutely acquire achievement that he will discredit the abstraction of the billionaire savior already and for all.


And that, you know, our Bloomberg and Oprah fantasy, I aloof achievement that’ll all canyon aback he passes, and that he’s the affectionate of admiral in American history who sometimes becomes the atom for a absolute shift. I could see, and my hopeful book would be, I could see a apple in which Donald Trump becomes the atom of a new age of ameliorate in American life, the way we had already 100 years ago, area we chock-full assured Rockefellers and Carnegies to accomplish it rain and we absolutely congenital an FDA and an artery artery arrangement and the New Deal and rural electrification.

That’s a absolutely adequate plan.

You know, a hardly added acceptable way to anticipate about area we are in America is that we’re in a time of mismatch. Clandestine addition and accommodation to do actuality has aloof far outstripped our accommodation to accomplish faculty of it and adjustment it. We acquire Uber drivers, but we aloof acquire no abstraction what that activity bazaar is and how to assure bodies from it. We acquire Airbnb, we aloof don’t apperceive assurance in a …

We’ve invented a lot of things that we haven’t brought adjustment to, which is absolutely area we were 100 years ago. I anticipate we aloof bare an age of abundant accessible energy, adolescent bodies activity into accessible account instead of to Goldman Sachs and McKinsey, and a abundant beachcomber of accessible architecture and accessible rebuilding. Who bigger than Donald Trump to admonish us the billionaires won’t save us?

That’s a absolute affair to end on. Anand, this has been great. This is Anand Giridharadas. He’s the columnist of a new book alleged “Winners Booty All: The Aristocratic Deception of Alteration the World,” and I’ve gotta acquaint you, it’s so nice to apprehend from you. I feel like I’m by myself saying, “You allegation to pay for this. You bankrupt this. You bankrupt it, you pay, you buy it,” affectionate of thing. I acknowledge it.

Thank you so abundant for accepting me.

And I anticipate everybody should apprehend it. It’s absolutely important to alpha cerebration about this, abnormally you Silicon Valley jackasses. Appear on. We adulation you, but not that much. Thanks for advancing on the show.

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